This podcast was recorded during our third DAYLIGHT event of Season two, Dignity, held on May 9, 2019. This conversation was between Justin Garrett Moore, AICP, Executive Director of New York City Public Design Commission and Co-founder of Indianapolis-based social enterprise, Urban Patch and Starla Hart, MPA, Director of Community Initiatives for 16 Tech.
INTRODUCTION + REMARKS
Lourenzo Giple: [00:00:00] Hello. You are listening to the DAYLIGHT podcast series, created by People for Urban Progress and Exhibit Columbus, made possible with the support of the Cummins Foundation and brought to you by Ambrose Property Group and Central Indiana Community Foundation. Daylight Season 2 brings together national and local thought leaders around the topic of inclusive design and this season we have authentic conversations on the realities of equity, dignity, and justice as it relates the responsible design for Indianapolis. As Indianapolis grows and changes, these hard hitting topics have an impact on the overall city and thus have an impact on you.
Lourenzo Giple: [00:00:36] Daylight Season 2 Episode 3: Dignity. This podcast we recorded on May 9th, 2019. During the event we heard from Justin Garrett Moore, Executive Director of the New York City Public Design Commission and Starla Hart Director of Community Initiatives a 16 tech.
Richard McCoy: [00:00:56] So let's get started on tonight's event a conversation about dignity in design. I'm looking forward, of course, to our two presenters. We'll hear from them both individually and then they will come back up and have a conversation which we will invite you to participate in. First we are going to hear from Starla Hart. Starla serves as 16 Tech Community Corporation's Director of Community Initiatives. She leads the innovation district's work with the near west, northwest, and surrounding neighborhoods to ensure the benefits of 16 tech economic growth support access, opportunity, and revitalization of nearby communities. Welcome Starla.
STARLA HART + INTRODUCTION TO DIGNITY
Starla Hart: [00:01:46] All right. So thank you for having me. I just want to say thanks for inviting me to be speaking this evening. This has proven to be a thought-provoking series. And thanks to friends of PUP and others, Exhibit Columbus and their partners.
Starla Hart: [00:02:03] So when I get started this evening I just wanted to recap some of the things I've learned from attending the first two sessions. So in episode one we were focused on inclusion. I learned from Jha D that when we work in communities that we should focus on place keeping, not just place making. I also learned that a practical way to create more inclusive design is to invite folks that aren't designers to the table to participate in the design process. During episode two on equity I had to say a little amen to myself from my seat when Antoinette expressed to everyone that everyone living is an expert. This really resonated with me and she went on to challenge the group to be agents of change by stating that if inequities have been designed, then we can redesign them. I'm going to say that one more time because that's a sentiment I think we should think about at the rest of the evening. If inequities have been designed, then we can redesign them. It's one of the most profound statements I've heard recently.
Starla Hart: [00:03:09] So for episode three here focused on dignity I'm introducing our conversation by taking you through a few levels of the rabbit hole I went through to prepare prepare for tonight. Similar to Brian Payne last month, I of course went to look for definitions of the word. But I also went back to an old college habit in looking for quotes. You know when you have to write those really long papers and yours is like maybe two pages shy, you change the font and you look for quotes. Right? [laughter] I found several that were fitting for this evening that I want to share with you.
Starla Hart: [00:03:44] The first is from Laura Hillenbrand from her book Unbroken. She's an American author. It reads "Without dignity, identity is erased. In its absence, men are defined not by themselves, but by their captors and the circumstances in which they are forced to live.” When I heard this when I felt like, first number one it should be written on across every agenda of every community planning meeting that I attend on a regular basis because that's the essence of what we hear from folks in the community about design or neighborhood development or community development is that their identity–the number one fear is that their identity is being erased. So I went on to look for those definitions and learned that you know my Latin could come in handy, that I took in high school, and that the word dignity stems from the Latin word dignitas which means worthiness. I looked in Merriam-Webster and they said that that dignity is the quality or state of being worthy, honored, or esteemed. And then Wikipedia, you always have to go to Wikipedia, and they said that dignity is the right of a person to be valued and respected for their own sake and to be treated ethically.
Starla Hart: [00:05:00] So I think this coincides with what how Richard framed the conversation in saying that dignity is really about being worthy, feeling honored, feeling valued, and respected in the space that you're in. And this is what we need to keep in mind not only for the next hour, but each time we seek to design a new building, a new product, a new space, or rebuild a neighborhood. So as we continue to trace down my rabbit hole for preparation I must mention that I came across, from a friend, a TEDx by John Cary. He's an architect and a writer. And in November 2017 he gave a talk for TED Women that was entitled How Architecture Can Create Dignity For All. He made several points that resonated with me in this work, and I probably could just play his video instead of being front of you right now, but I want to share the three main points that stuck with me about that-that TED talk for the past three months. The first, is that dignity can make people feel honored, valued, respected, and seen. We've heard this already this evening. The second is that people with dignity have agency over spaces and places, and agency really is about control. So if we think about community planning processes and who's at the table, who makes decisions, who's designing at the table, who's giving input. This really resonated with me and the work that I do. And the last point he said, that really framed and really stuck with me the most, was he said that Dignity is to design, what justice is to law, and health is the medicine. So if you think about that for a moment dignity is really the goal–the outcome of design justice is really the goal or the outcome of law and health is really what we're seeking to remedy with medicine. Right? So dignity is to design, what justice is to law, and health is to medicine.
Starla Hart: [00:07:05] So then I kept going down the rabbit hole and I noticed that none of my notes, besides research I did on Justin, featured anyone of color and this was really a problem for me. So it should be a problem and would bring up red flags for you too. And so I next set out to hear and look for things that folks from that people of color had to say about dignity. Among them–the references I found a quote from civil rights leader, Whitney M. Young, he was defending the often criticized black–and misunderstood–Black Power movement. He said that "Black power simply means look at me, I'm here. I have dignity. I have pride. I have roots. I insist. I demand that I participate in those decisions that affect my life and those of my children. It means that I am somebody."
Starla Hart: [00:08:00] As part of my current role I work in three distinct neighborhood areas one of which I've worked for literally 20 years. The things I often hear from community members in doing community organizing and development work are Why didn't I know? Who was at that meeting? Who made that decision? Who designed this? Did they even talk to anybody from here before they made these decisions? Where is my seat at the table? Stop doing things to us and ask us to participate with you. Here we go again. Am I right, sister from my neighborhood that knows these comments well [motions to audience member]. So 60 years after Whitney M. Young's quote, it still sounds a lot from the community about–what we still hear a lot is Look at me. I'm here. I have roots, I insist, I demand, that I participate in things that affect my life and the lives of my children. I am somebody.
Starla Hart: [00:08:58] So there are challenges in this work, for sure but I think we have a great opportunity here and the opportunity is to really change and use our creative minds to do something different. I watched a Netflix documentary about, I don't know.. two weeks ago, It's called Creative Brain, if you are bored this weekend you should check it out. It's not very long. And in it they suggested three things that make folks minds more creative. And one of the suggestions that they gave was to learn something new. So by being here this evening, hopefully participating in this conversation, and hopefully when you leave I'm challenging you to learn something new so we can begin to do something different because we have the power to redesign the inequities that exist.
Starla Hart: [00:09:45] So I'm excited about my new role at 16 tech and that we have this opportunity to do something different. We're at the forefront of thinking out how to do development different. Oftentimes when development happens, new things happen in a community, the effects of the effects of that development on the community are an afterthought. People are displaced. Prices go up. The actual fabric and the people that you see walking on the streets look drastically different than those that were there 10-20 years prior. And so by having community engagement as part of the–at the onset, the forefront of our development, we have opportunity to do something different. To invest in neighborhoods, to listen to neighbors, and to figure out how to build with them and not think of them after–as an afterthought.
Starla Hart: [00:10:41] So there are two quotes that I would like first to think about as we consider the rest of this design conversation and think about the comments that Justin is going to make here shortly. They're from two different people that probably couldn't seem any more different on the surface. One is from Melinda Gates. She said "Great design is not a finite resource. It is a choice we can all make by listening more, empathizing more, and demanding more for humanity. Even in the face of scarcity and suffering, there must always be room for dignity." And the final quote is is from an interview on integration with Malcolm X. Thank you.
Eleanor Fischer (from recording, 1961): [00:11:20] "Well, isn’t this exactly what Dr. King is looking towards, and that is the day when the Negro will be treated with dignity? Wasn’t this, after all, the result of the Montgomery bus boycott?
Malcolm X (from recording, 1961): [00:11:30] "No, because having an opportunity to ride either on the front, or the back, or in the middle of someone else's bus doesn't dignify you. When you have your own bus, then you have dignity. When you have your own school, you have dignity. When you have your own country, you have dignity. When you have something of your own, you have dignity. But whenever you are begging for a chance to participate in that which belongs to someone else, or use that which belongs to someone else on an equal basis with the owner, that's not dignity that's ignorance."
JUSTIN GARRETT MOORE + URBAN PATCH + THE NYC PUBLIC DESIGN COMMISSION
Richard McCoy: [00:12:01] It's now my pleasure to introduce Justin. I have remarks on how to introduce Justin but I'm just going to tell a story instead. I had a chance to visit him in New York a couple months ago and he has this amazing office in City Hall in Manhattan, in New York. And so going up to visit him is a really great experience and he got a chance to tell me all of the things that he does and what his position is there. And in short, you know I knew this but to be in his office in this–what is an 18th century building overlooking Lower Manhattan and to have Justin Garrett Moore explained to you that every commission that deals with public space in the city of New York, all five boroughs, comes through his office and across his desk, it gave me a sense of his responsibility and his role and it must be a significant one. Thank you, Justin, for coming and welcome.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:13:03] All right. Thank you. Mike good on, on the sound? Everyone can hear me? Good. So first thank you to People for Urban Progress, Exhibit Columbus, and all the sponsors for the invitation. As mentioned I'm a native son of Indianapolis so I always like excuses to come back home and I'm really happy to share some of my work with you. And thank you, Starla, really for that great introduction that kind of set the stage for this conversation. So I do a lot of different kinds of work and so I apologize in advance for the visual barrage, medley that you're about to see but I am a designer and so it's hard to talk about design without images, but I always like to start with history. So Richard started this conversation actually did acknowledge the land that we're on, the kind of the history and background, that's really important when we talk about dignity. Dignity of narrative, dignity of story is so important for how we live and operate today to acknowledge what's happened in the past. And very often that's happened in the past has been erased, undervalued, or not understood at all.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:14:15] So this is my history. This gentleman was my grandfather Albert Alan Moore and he worked for Flanner House growing up we were told that he was a farmer. It wasn't exactly the case, he ran on an urban agriculture program for the Flanner House. And this is actually one of the large scale farms that they had on 16th Street on the west side. And so my grandfather ran this large program that involved over 600 families in that community doing gardening, farming, and providing basic services–food access. But it also provided a form of dignity, actually. So they provided jobs. Jobs for veterans that were returning, jobs for young people that needed help assisting their families, and provided opportunities for people to work between generations to provide for their community. This is an image from their canning facility where they would can all of the food that was produced in those gardens. But they were really a progressive organization–the Flanner House. So this is a community center that they had and you'll see that they have a demonstration kitchen that they built to teach people how to cook healthy food. So all the issues we talk about today diet-related diseases, food deserts, all of that was happening then and this community literally designed and built an infrastructure for them to address their needs and with dignity. So how did they do that? In this conversation and what to prompt a bunch of hows, they talk to people. Right? They met with members of their community and they talked to all the families. This image on the left is a socio graph. So they had a sociologist who went in and talked to and met with all the families in that community to understand what the needs, what the connections, what the strengths were so that they could start to build community in a different way. And so what they did with that information Flanner House sort of convened people in the neighborhood. They met–a little girl whose looks brought out her mind but it was important what they were meeting about–which was to build their own community and neighborhood. Right? So just heard the Malcolm X quote. They built in Fall Creek–homes right on Fall Creek between 10th and 16th Street, a neighborhood with 300 homes that were developed through the nation's first large self-help housing program. Some of you know Habitat for Humanity?This group of black people in the 1950s did that 20 years before Habitat for Humanity existed. And at a large scale.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:16:57] And so this was how they did it. They got people together and they built houses. They were able to through their sweat equity build their homes but they also were able to design and configure their homes, right? It was it was a way to kind of have choice. These homes were designed by a black architect at the time that allowed the families to choose which materials, choose the layout. And this group of people got together and they literally built their own community. And so this image shows kind of the area outlined in red was the original neighborhood that was there, outlined in orange to the south was Lockefield Gardens, right? That was the government's answer–was to build segregated, low-income housing. What Flanner House homes did is they rebuilt the neighborhood. They thought about the flooding problem they had, so they built a park that was able to kind of address some of the flooding that they had in their community. They built all of the homes with homeownership. Meanwhile Lockefield Gardens stands as kind of a contrast to to what the design solution for addressing that community needs were. Now if we fast forward to today those homes still exist if you know the area and drive around you might think Oh these are these unremarkable little bungalow houses. But if you know the history, you know that those places are one of the most dignified parts of Indianapolis that you'll ever know. Right. So if you don't know that, if you don't know your history, if you don't know our city's history–which isn't just black history, it's Indianapolis' history. You don't know that, you may not value that place. It's important that you do so.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:18:33] Meanwhile you can see to the south Lockefield Gardens had the many issues that a lot of housing has, half of it was in poor condition and was demolished, the other half is now gentrified. So that didn't really work out so well. So fast forward, really inspired by all this work that that Flanner House did and by this history and roots, started to think about what was needed in an our community. So I grew up north side Mapleton-Fall Creek in Meridian-Kessler neighborhood, around 38th and College and we decided to do something, right? This neighborhood still had challenges, a lot of vacant land, a lot of vacant homes, disinvestment... all the challenges that we know exist in cities, you know derivative from redlining, racist practices, a lot of different layers. And so it started with a really simple idea that we were going to make our community better to make our city better. So we got these two properties, it was a vacant house and a vacant lot, and over time we've just been doing more and more–vacant house, vacant lot, vacant house, vacant lot to improve our community. So this was the first vacant house on Delaware street long-foreclosed home that needed repair. And this is what we did, fixed it up. Very simple idea right. Sounds easy, but it was not easy. All right. So fixing it up was physically not easy, you know fixing up an old home, but what actually was the hardest was that I, as a black man with a you know six figure salary, had my 25 percent down, had an 800 credit score, two Ivy League degrees... I could not get a loan to do this. In this day and age. So racism still exists, structural inequality still exists. It is persistent. Right? The idea was that we couldn't financing because this property didn't appraise high enough, because too many black people were around. They had other excuses, but we all know what the reason was there were too many black people in this community. Frankly, if I were white and had that conversation the bank would have had a different outcome. We know this is true. So when I talk about dignity that is a clear illustration for how it does not happen in the way that we're taught in this country today. But nonetheless, we persisted and basically took a bunch of loans from my credit card to make that happen. We got the house done. But we also thought we needed to give back. So there is this responsibility.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:21:19] So this was it 30th and Central the old kind of vacant lot condition that we helped to transform and to the sunflower mural, some of you probably know it driving down Central, and the Central gardens that are there. But making sure that that was something that people were a part of that change, right? So we had many different designs for the mural and people in the community voted on it. We had young people from Shortridge High School art class come and help paint the mural. So this is a piece of the community that's changing that we're allowing people to have input on, have authorship and ownership of that change and it is something that we're–we're very proud of.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:22:06] So as the project has kind of grown and developed, Urban Patch, it's sort of a family affair, family social enterprise–everyone gets involved and we kind of figure out Well how can we do more? So design process is about iterations, so you do something then the next time you figure out how you can do it better. If you're going to make your community better you have to figure out how you do better each time. So future projects we thought, Well this is great. But then how do we get jobs and employment into the conversation? So hiring local contractors and people to have some of the benefit from the development as well, as a part of how we're building a different model for how community change happens.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:22:46] And you know really you just thinking is–in many different ways–how we recover and think about the history and and kind of basis of our work and so we learn from Flanner House about the kind of canning and gardening and finding great ways to bring people together. So my mom is in the audience here started up a canning program in the neighborhood that allowed for people that were part of the gardens, but also just in general, to have this way to connect around more programmatic things like canning and food that were equally important for the changes happening in our community.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:23:25] And finally, and this is my favorite project, was to think and talk about the collective and shared understanding for the neighborhood and the long term. Richard mentioned in beginning to talk about you know the people in the past, but you also have to talk about people in the future. And so we did the Indy Redbud Project, which is giving out Redbud trees to people in the neighborhood–so old timers, newcomers, everyone has something together that they can share which are these Redbud trees that they take care of together and every spring there's some kind of collective identity that everyone can be proud of in the neighborhood's change. And so we're really excited that Urban Patch, and our work, and imprint in the community has grown and we've teamed up with Majora Carter who's a kind of urban sustainable development strategist and developer, the community builders, and Urban Patch working to really take it to the next level of development in Mapleton-Fall Creek. So this is the context for that work at 30th and Central. There used to be sort of a bustling neighborhood, density, activity but today this is what we have–a lot of vacant land and vacant lots. And so what we're doing is to really take on the challenge for how this neighborhood grows in the future.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:24:58] So all the areas outlined in in yellow are vacant lots really at the heart of our neighborhood. And so what we're doing is working with development to kind of figure out well what does the redevelopment of our community look like going forward. And it's sort of a mix of housing, apartments, and jobs, and open space. And what we're really proud of is that we're able to have a conversation about all of the community's needs. The key one being jobs and access to food. So the anchor of this project that will go at 30th and Central is a space for a food manufacturing company called Revolution Foods. So they do healthy school lunches, right? So they develop healthy food for schools but that provides both healthy food for the schools, but also jobs–light industrial, food manufacturing jobs that can be an anchor of this community and not just housing, right? Community needs housing, but they also need other things. So this is is hopefully moving forward soon we're working with LISC and the city and the Mapleton-Fall Creek Development Corporation to get this development done.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:26:11] And the reason that we do this, and we talk about what we want for our neighborhood, we say this is sort of what we want for our neighborhood. So you're talking about dignity you all watch Sesame Street or you had your kids watch Sesame Street. Sesame Street is all about dignity, it's like how you're treating each other, people that have difference, how do you acknowledge that? And there is a fabric, there is a framework for interactions between people, but also how people understand and share space that that we think can be rooted in our communities and it's almost like in just getting up and reminding people about Sesame Street, the world may be different in many ways.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:26:53] So changing hats. So that's my kind of Indianapolis hat, changing hats to my work in New York, there's a totally different scale, right? So this is my what I call my bureaucrat hat. So I wouldn't be a good bureaucrat if I didn't show you an org chart. And so this is the org chart for the city of New York. So New York City eight and a half million people, five burrows.. within New York City government is three hundred and thirty thousand people, that work for this city. Right? So it's a big organization. At the top of that chart, you can probably read the text, but at the top of the chart is the people below the people, the mayor. Then there are all these agencies and departments, and then outlined in magenta is me, the head of the Design Commission. And so when we talk about something like the government, there are all the decisions that are being made in government, so outlined here all the decision makers that are talking about the design of the city, the built environment, planning, development. And what happens is everybody makes their own decisions in the silos. Right? So the water department is making sure that your water is good quality. The police department is making sure that crime is low, et cetera et cetera.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:28:12] But the problem is people in a city don't really care about that. This is all they see I have my neighborhood, you know they're street flooding, I can't get my business license, all these different interactions that are making this city work. And so what we have to do more and more is think about how we have conversations around how things come together and how they fit together. All right. So design is is about process and how people are or are not a part of that process is really key.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:28:45] So an example I have of that is in New York. We have EMS stations, emergency medical service stations, right? People doing that. So this is one that was built in Greenpoint, Greenpoint is in Brooklyn it's a predominantly white, and middle, and increasingly gentrifying neighborhood. And so the city built a new EMS station. This is what they built. It's kind of weird looking but funky, cool. Fine, right? When they built this EMS station they went to community, they had a lot of meetings, and process to get input for what they wanted and they got a good result. That same fire department went to East New York which is a predominantly black and predominately low-income community. And this is what they wanted to build. Right? Same program, same budget, same agency. The only difference was where they were and that when they went to a black community they didn't bother to talk to people. They did like the community meeting and then like, you know Wednesday night, nobody shows up and you know it didn't exist. So it comes to the design commission and we say Hold up. This is not right. And we just you know you start by asking questions, this is another how, ask a lot of questions. So we asked the question innocently but not, Why is this this bad? So they told us that in East New York there is a lot of gun violence. And if you have a lot of glass in the building then people will get shot. Right?
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:30:17] And so we're like oh that's interesting because something like gun violence is an ephemeral condition. A building is a physical, solid condition. Why would you make all of your decisions about something that changes like a gun violence hot spot for a building that's going to be there at least 50 years. All right. And so we you know kind of had some back and forth and ultimately got the fire department to come up with different design solutions. And when this went back to the community people said Oh well that's a lot better right? But there is a whole series of conversations that were not had because one group of people were treated very differently by their same government that they all pay the same taxes to about their place.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:31:01] So that's not so great example where it was more kind of policeman role. This is a more positive example. And this is a project in the Bronx called the Peninsula. The Peninsula is a kind of real estate developer renaming of what was the Spofford Youth Detention Facility. So it was a kid jail in the South Bronx. That was a site of trauma, and violence, and everything negative for this community's kind of baby incarceration that was eventually closed. And in this way the city did things right. So he started the process with dignity, right, to acknowledge what happened in that community and to go to talk to people about what happened in that community and what people wanted in their future. So there is a much more involved engagement process that had, you know they weren't wednesday evening meetings that only like older, retired people will show up to, but things that people of young families could come to that had day care, that had translation services, all these different kinds of formats of process to talk to people about what was needed. And what they say resounding what was needed was obviously they wanted affordable housing, but really what they wanted was jobs. They wanted daycare, they wanted groceries, they wanted a place to go to the bank. I mean all of these things that were totally unaddressed in their community and frankly you know intentionally were not addressed in that community.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:32:40] So the project that was developed made all of those requests by people in the neighborhood literally the foundation for the project. So layer by layer providing for a bank, providing for local jobs, providing for a daycare, open space, artists studios, health center, and a grocery store are the foundation for this project. Right, the housing you know it's fine, but the design of it was really to talk to and give people the investment that they asked for as the base of the project. So this is it. It's kind of got an anchor at the corner which are more of that community and jobs related programs in the housing above, and centered by a new public space that the daycare, the health center, the artist studios all can kind of population in that public space. And so another form of kind of imagery, right. This is the facility today and this is the groundbreaking which was actually a demolition of the detention center. Right. So this is, I say this is what justice looks like when we talk about urban design, taking that facility down.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:34:00] The next step next kind of thread is that Urban Patch based here in little ol' Indiana is gone global. And and we've started working in Africa, in Rwanda. And this is kind of happenstance through personal connections and things, but Rwanda is an incredibly important place to talk about dignity. So you all probably know the story the genocide, or may have seen Hotel Rwanda and know what that country's gone through, but the interesting thing is they're in this phase of really rebuilding their society and thinking, very forward thinking, about what their future is and what it will be.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:34:52] And so we've kind of gone into brave territory there to start Urban Patch Kigali. So this our idea and work is around this very basic need for all cities really, which is the building block of the city is it's housing. where people live and how they live at the most basic instrumental level. And so we're working with a group called SCAT housing and construction company where they've developed a whole program around developing housing with affordable construction materials that allow for employment opportunities in the construction sector, but also developing affordable housing that looks something like this. But what we've done is the Flanner House model of housing that I showed you from way back, we've kind of remixed it to do work there where there's a development model that doesn't build affordable housing in low-income areas it builds affordable housing in high-income areas with infrastructure and creates a development model that allows it to sustain and to be located, for example, in places where there is transportation, infrastructure, jobs, schools, and sewers. And in places that have higher land values. So this involves a different kind of approach to thinking about design synthesis using data, using projection, using analysis to kind of build a different model for how you think about space. Right? So here in Indianapolis, you know unfortunately when a lot of times and you build affordable housing you build it in a segregated development. Still to this day, even though we–everybody knows that that doesn't work, why are you still doing it? I don't get it. There are other ways and other models you could do that that are economically feasible, that are socially environmentally possible. So this is our our site. It will start construction in the next month or two. And this is what we're building which you know just looks like housing, it's fine. But what's innovative about this is that it's 40 percent affordable housing and so people that can afford only twenty thousand dollars to buy a house, which is kind of an affordable, cost there, is in the same building, same finishes, same development model as people that are paying a hundred thousand. So you have to rebuild and rethink your models, and adjust what kind of the foundation for the city will be.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:37:38] So I'm going to end with kind of two prompts. First, was a conversation that I think really connects to some of the things that Starla was pointing out, you know talking about Whitney Young, talking about Malcolm X, and this idea of dignity but also how our cities and spaces are designed. So this is you know could be anywhere in America and I want you to pay attention to these two red lines. So it's street a lot of streets don't have sidewalks, right? So a couple summers ago three black teenagers were walking down the street. Kind of at dusk time and a truck hit the three teenagers. All three of them. So police come, everything. Truck's like Oh you know that was unfortunate. There you go. The three teens were charged with misdemeanor because they were not wearing reflective clothing and walking in the street. Right. So you know you could say that's a problem with the laws and the justice system and everything. And you know, this is America and so there we know that there are issues with the laws. But there's also an issue with the design. This street was designed to not have a space for those boys to have to walk in the public right of way–a street is legally called a right of way. Right? You have the right of way, that's what it is called. But the designers made a choice. Right? The designers said that people that have something like the car, which guess what a car costs money, right? The car has a greater right of way than somebody who does not have a car. So that's one layer. You know the other layer is you see there's no street lighting here. Right. So the people's black skin was criminalized. You know if you're white you kind of naturally have reflective skin. [laughter] Right.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:39:50] I mean it's it's funny but it's it's real. This is like–you you're still to this day you're criminalized for your skin color, in context, and has everything to do with design and has everything to do with dignity and lack thereof. And so it's just something you have to kind of really be conscious of. Like all the different layers. So we talk about planning and design the same premise of of law that determines things like zoning and planning, tou know it's Tenth Amendment, it's called police power. Right. That the government can do things for the protection of general health safety and welfare. That's like the premise of how all cities are planned and regulated and everything is that, based on police power. The same police power that policemen can use to say I was frightened and I killed that young man. Same law. So we have to really think about it, these constructs, and how we think and operate with them.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:40:51] So one of the ways that we're working to think and operate with them is to think about how we redefine design practice, and planning practice, and urbanism. So I'm a part of a group called BlackSpace you can look us up black space dot org is the website. And so we're a group of black urban planners, designers, artists, creatives, people from a lot of different fields that are in some form or fashion working in and around black communities and issues of black people have in planning and design, and figuring out different ways that we know practice can work differently from the way it's typically done in government, or in business, or even in the NGO sector. I sometimes called the non-profit industrial complex. You know the ways that you think about and create place and talk about values is important.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:41:43] So we've developed a group of of principles or what we call our manifesto that I think are a little bit of a how we approach this idea of dignity and design. And I won't read all of them but a few of them that are key. One create circles not lines, create less hierarchy and more dialogue, inclusion, and empowerment. So who are you including in these processes? This is a really important one which is, move at the speed of trust. So people understand that change happens. People understand that, you know, they're dynamics and power differences and everything but a lot of times it's is there trust and is there a kind of opportunity for people to understand the changes that are happening or to have input and value in the changes that are happening. Centering lived experience, so you know when I was talking about the the Flanner House homes, the Fall Creek homes area, so if you drive by that and say Oh those are just some whatever old bungalows. If you understood the lived experiences you know somebodies parents or grandparents built that house at the time that they built that house you understand something very different about that community and its value. And finally fostering personal and communal evolution, so that the value of your place the value of your self, is important especially when you talk about dignity. Kind of the right and the valuing of that can be personal but it also needs to be communal. It also needs to be something that is understood outside of yourself to meet additional aims.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:43:30] So I'll end the conversation with something I always like to put into my talk. So this is from the Flanner house and it was a document that they called the new frontier. And this was a plan that they did in the 50s talking about the work that they were doing and it says "What is it about? About people, about their needs, their abilities, the land they live on, the land they till, the food they grow. About the cities they live in, about the jobs they do, how they do them," and it goes on to say "It's about what people know and don't know, and what they ought to know." This is my favorite part especially now, "ought to know to help make America still greater." And so, thank you. I think it's sort of a provocation of of how we do this work, and what dignity can bring to our communities and to our cities.
Starla Hart: [00:44:33] So I want to start by just asking you a little bit more about just yourself before we jump into the design. So as you think about your role as a planner, as an architect, as a designer, as a creative thinker, and I would say social justice advocate, as well, what what would you like to be known for you know in 20 years 30 years when you retire or when someone's bringing up your picture and talking about Urban Patch instead of Flanner homes–what would you like to be known for?
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:45:04] Yeah. So it's interesting, so I'm most professionally identify as an urban designer, so a city designer. And it's it's kind of curious because it doesn't have the same kind of authorship that goes with a lot of what I call the design ego professions. You know the architect–here's my famous tower that I did, in my case it's not that it's it's more this idea that Have I made places better? And that can mean and look like a lot of different things, what that translates to. So the work that we're doing, obviously here in the community where I'm from, it's that I would like for my community to be better and that may mean you know we've done some kind of artwork projects, and it may mean that there are more people that can still afford to live in our neighborhood. And both of those things are design, by the way. Right. It's kind of the process for setting up what an outcome or what a future can be. And so yeah it's actually, I call it kind of the constellation. I want there to not be one thing that I'm known for, but for people to kind of put together a lot of different dots that make a picture of kind of impact, or value that I've brought to communities I've lived in, worked with, or have had some kind of impact.
Starla Hart: [00:46:31] So you talked a little bit about your family history it's clear you grew up here in Indy. So as a young black man growing up here, did you feel valued, and respected, and seen, and honored, and worthy–all those things we talked about that are associated with having dignity. And tell us yes or no, and then if, how was that reinforced or not in the built environment that you were in.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:47:00] Ooh.
Starla Hart: [00:47:02] Sorry.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:47:02] [Laughter] Let's say my parents are here and I'm very lucky that you know, obviously I had you know my family [applause] and my aunt. So you know obviously having a kind of a family that helps support and values you is so important it's kind of the base unit. But at the same time, you know I grew up kind of, as I said off 38th and College and I'm almost 40. Oof.
Starla Hart: [00:47:31] It's not that bad.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:47:31] [laughter] But you know so I you know in the 80s and 90s when I was growing up, that neighborhood wass very different back then. Right? And so, you know we had a great community, and and great assets, but then there are also things that we're missing. You know we didn't have a great park. You know we played in what we called the coalfields. Those are old coal storage lot next to the fairgrounds. And that was my park, was like rocks. [laughter]
Starla Hart: [00:47:59] Not fun, you had to get real creative.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:48:05] We made it work, but you know my playground was rocks. You know and there are just so many layers that even as a kid growing up in Indianapolis. Segregation was very real. And we we had issues where you know we were not valued. So, you know, I think I was a smart little kid but you weren't valued as such. Right. 'Cause you're not a smart little kid, you're a black kid. And this is is just a reality that that became apparent, and including in the built environment, including you know where I went to school wouldn't necessarily have the same resources as other schools–when we would go visit white schools. And I felt sad that I could, you know when someone my age says white schools and black schools, and kids today still say white schools and black schools and that is just crazy, right?
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:49:09] So it's it's tough but it is absolutely shaped and formed kind of why I actually care so much about built environment work. You know now and I met the Design Commission and we're looking at parks and playgrounds and you know there is a park in the South Bronx that's not getting its due diligence I can say Well, that's not right. You know and it still it happens all the time, we had a–in one meeting we had a 14 million dollar playground in lower Manhattan, so like Tribeca we're all the rich people live, 14 million dollars for one playground was about a half an acre. The same time a half acre playground in the Bronx, three hundred thousand dollars. Right. So you know New York obviously has a lot of wealth inequality but that happens everywhere, all the time, it's like America. And so the more that that you sort of talk about those differences and push against them and understand what the actual impact is on people, on young people, on the city's collective future, the better.
Starla Hart: [00:50:18] So let's keep that digging into that, in terms of agency, and the agency of those in the room, and so you have a very specific role now as a bureaucrat but tasked with pushing for a more progressive design. What is the role of folks that might be in this room in terms of a designer, or a planner, or maybe a community member, or just an advocate–I wouldn't consider myself a designer but we design things every day, I look at plans every day. And so what's what are individuals roles in terms of changing the paradigm of what we're seeing in terms of designing communities.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:50:57] So I say all the time, another hat I wear is I teach at Columbia University, urban design, and so you talk about redesigning the designers. So for those you that are designers, planners or some kind of urbanist practitioner that could be someone in community development, whatever, you understand all of the ways that you're taught to do business. Right. And you know there's a process and there are probably reasons for that, but you have to understand that you've been miseducated. So that's step one, is that all of us collectively have been miseducated.
Starla Hart: [00:51:37] Taking notes right now.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:51:41] [laughter] It's tough right? Like it's it's, it's by design that people that go through planning an architecture school learn about Le Corbusier and and Robert Moses and all the people that design Tower in the Park housing developments that you know you go into a black community wipe it out and build a highway and build high rise housing. You don't learn about people like Cleo Blackburn and Albert Moore. That is intentional. Right? And so there there is a whole system of of misknowledge that has been permeated throughout the world, and throughout the country, and in your community that you have to be aware of. So doing the work to kind of understand that, is really important. And then from that the next step is to look at other models and other alternatives. And some of those can be very community-based and community-rooted it could be getting a group of your friends or neighbors together. It could be if you're, you know a group of urbanists or urban development minded people together and just unpacking and thinking about what do you collectively see wrong with the way things are being done.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:52:58] It's it's really important to do that and then to allocate the resources to addressing it. I mean I think this event is in some way a version of that, but it takes a lot of work. These systems are entrenched, they've been in place for a very long time, and by very powerful people. Who do not want things to be different.
Starla Hart: [00:53:24] So let's go on that topic of power and say that one of the tenants that you had at BlackSpace was around a hierarchy or you know having a circle, aAnd you just spoke about power dynamics. How might we go about breaking down those power dynamics if we feel like our roles are way down on the organizational chart, or if we're in a community where we feel like we have no voice?
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:53:51] So power is really great and really interesting and there is a lot of conversations going on now around kind of this in global scales called by all power, just your your mass, the multitude–like people in numbers have power, but the the issue is that you have to have time and not just power. So the problem is a lot of times people that are from some kind of former lower status whether it's economic, or racial or gender, or gender identity, they may be in a situation where they may be very smart, they may even have money, they may have connections but if they don't have the time to undo systems it's very tough. So something we've seen is very valuable in kind of an organizing space, is to figure out ways that you can collectively align kind of your time and energy. And it's like kind of finding the pressure point for things. And it's really important to do things at the right time right? So when you see changes happening in your neighborhood and and you know it's kind of reading tea leaves or patterns-seeing we call it, to make sure that that you're kind of getting things at the right time. We always tell people in the urban planning design world it's like by the time there's somebody showing up at a kind of a community meeting with a bunch of boards it's too late.
Starla Hart: [00:55:28] So so that's been my experience working in communities you know. That that sentiment of you know Why didn't we know, you know, Who made this decision and by the time you try to remonstrate against a zoning change or something, projects have been worked on for months or years. Right? So in thinking about that and thinking about time, one of the things that they often tell folks to do in doing more inclusive work is to build relationships.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:55:57] Yes.
Starla Hart: [00:55:58] And to build relationships takes a lot of time. And sometimes if we're talking about working in communities that have a lack of resources, or you know the seniors that don't check or may not check email–or may not have e-mail–and that's just the normal way people do business now. You know there's a lot of challenges with trying to build relationships and that takes a lot of time. And so how might we plan projects differently or interject some sort of process that could account for the time it takes to actually build the relationships to do something different.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:56:41] So some work that we've been doing recently really connects to this and I think it connects actually to the dignity topic. So building relationships is obviously personal like one-to-one connection and it takes a certain amount of energy and time to do that. But then there's also trust and credibility that come with that. And in order for people to trust you it is a two-way relationship, So it requires actually understanding other people. Which is hard, right? And so we talk a lot about kind of identity, doing kind of the understanding of history and background, kind of understand where people are coming from, understanding where they are, and understanding where they want to go. And that's like three pieces that are that are actually really hard to do. Like you imagine you're dating somebody or whatever it's–but doing that at a community scale.
Starla Hart: [00:57:41] Yes.
Justin Garrett Moore: [00:57:43] [laughter] It's like, it's hard. But but I think at least understanding that there are those three different kind of stages that are important to acknowledge. It requires stepping back a little bit from your motivations and understanding kind of others motivations. Right. So you may want to come in and say Oh we want to make this community better and we want to take this whole warehouse building and fix it up and turn it into a venue. Right. Great. But then who else, who else's perspective was a part of that decision making process? I think that's something that is very hard for people to kind of really step outside. So I would really recommend that people, I guess take a step back and take a step outside of yourself to the degree that you can and find ways to kind of build the relationships, build the trust and that involves actually taking the time to understand people. And it goes back to my earlier point about understanding that you've been maybe miseducated about some things and kind of checking your biases, you know really just trying to kind of project yourself into another person's reality.
Q + A WITH AUDIENCE
Starla Hart: [00:59:05] Awesome. Well we have about 10 minutes so we're gonna open up the questions to our audience.
Dr. Toya Crain: [00:59:10] Thank you. So good evening and thank you very much for this presentation. Listening to you... there is a scripture that comes to mind and it goes like... God, You really touched me. You really touched me, your words my-my hope is that it doesn't fall on deaf ears, because seeing that we are in a room that is predominantly people of non-color and we are talking about dignity, and we are talking about seeing the worth and the value in someone that you on a daily basis don't even look at, don't even pay attention to. So I love when I see you talking about these things because it reminds me that the gift in you is good and it brings you before great men. And my hope is everyone else will see the good in you and not just you as your accomplishments, but you as a black man growing up in a community, in a state that was not for you and still today is not for many of us. So I hope–what is your homework for us? I feel like in these events we should all walk away with some type of responsibility not just to come and listen and hear the words but to take the words and apply them outside of these realms. So what would be your homework for us whites, blacks, on how we can work together on improving the dignity in each other?
Justin Garrett Moore: [01:01:07] Thank you and I really appreciate that. [applause] Yeah, I, so the I ended the presentation with these kind of principles and so black space dot org slash manifesto is a page, but If you go to black space dot org you'll find the actual document–anyone can download it, and you know we spent a lot of time putting those together and there there is a lot in there. When you read it you'll see that there are things that apply to a lot of different contexts, not only necessary working in black communities, but it applies to just how we do things. What's wrong in so many cases as is how we do things is just failed at the foundation of them.
Justin Garrett Moore: [01:02:04] Kind of a story I often tell about kind of being kind of black professional and working in this field, I was working in the the City Planning Department at the time and we were working in a committee called Brownsville in Brooklyn. It's kind of a predominately black, low-income neighborhood and I was at one of these I call it a multi-million dollar meeting–you have the meeting and you add up the salaries of everybody it's like a lot of money that are making decisions–so high poverty neighborhood and all these people together, and I was there as the urban designer so it's like they had this plan that they were gonna do and they wanted me to talk about you know You step the building back this way and you know what color brick, that kind of thing, and what they were doing was they were going to build over 200 units of very low-income and supportive housing in a neighborhood that was already low-income and had concentrations of housing. So I think you know I think I'm hot stuff right? In school. Raise my hand and say Well isn't this just further concentrating poverty?
Justin Garrett Moore: [01:03:15] Right. And everyone turns and looks at me like I have horns. And it just sort of hit it just hit me that it was me against like 20 people that just didn't get it. And you know I can guarantee you that most of those people had never even been to that neighborhood. And so there there's that kind of the takeaway, go look at those principles because there is a there's 14 of them and they're just kind of charges to for you to challenge and consider the way that you think about things in the way that you work, but then you literally can challenge other people that you're working with and come into contact with and say Have you done this? Have you centered other people's experience in some of these decisions that you're making that will forever affect their lives? Yeah we gotta get this product through whatever process, do enough people know that this is happening? Can we pause this for a month and have another meeting? Is that world gonna end if we don't, you know? And to just constantly have these different layers of kind of ways to, like I said, an important question at the right time is is very valuable. So definitely look at that. And it's a kind of launching point.
Richard McCoy: [01:04:42] Thank you. Thank you Toya, for that suggestion. I want to just–sorry, I want to talk a little bit about homework. Because it's something that we've been trying to do is that after the session we'll send an email out to everyone, and let's take Tonya's challenge and put some homework in it. So we'll put your link in it and if other people have suggestions of things that not only this community should know about, the folks that are here, but also that we can put on our web pages and we can help communicate, I think this is something we've been trying to do at each one and it's why we're making this into a podcast. And so very much appreciate your sentiment and thought and so I think together we need to work to figure out what we all need to be paying attention to. So, thank you.
Justin Garrett Mooore: [01:05:26] Right. And I have one more comment because to address like the the kind of non-POC, white audience and you know it's hard to fully understand someone else's experience right? Like those three teenage kids that were charged with a misdemeanor for walking down the street in their black skin, it wasn't a surprise to them that that happened right? Because they had an experience and it's it's just hard for you to know and understand that it at some level. But the idea of of having some responsibility for it is hard, but it's important to kind of think for yourself what does that mean for you in your experience. And kind of acknowledging either whether it's privilege, or access, or whatever it is, how you can use that to help correct some of the situations. It's very hard, but it's a challenge that we're we're kind of all responsible to addressing it. So often we rely on what I call the magical negro. It's actually usually a magical negress [laughter] you know people people that are under kind of a lot of stress and duress are asked to do a lot and it's impossible and then eventually they break, or tire out, or just you know fade out. But it's it's important to kind of find those people so another homework assignment. So there are people doing the work, find those people and help them. That's the easiest way to help people. Sesame Street.
Richard McCoy: [01:07:14] Thank you. Is there another question?
Amanda Elsts: [01:07:17] I guess being interracial and being raised colorblind and going to Pike High School which was pretty integrated. My question is do you ever get concerned about swinging so hard the other way that all you see is race and it becomes so that instead it's an inverse of what it is now, and that you aren't even accepting like all the other races and I don't understand that the concept of white people being considered colorless, to me they have their own color. I mean if you look at a color wheel and you're learning color theory it is all color. So I guess to me, the focus on making so many differences doesn't it kind of defeat the purpose of trying to create equality across the board?
Justin Garrett Moore: [01:08:04] Yeah. It's a really important point. So something that I've actually learned quite a lot from going to working in Rwanda is that, you know they had, you know one of the most terrible things that happened in human history only 25 years ago. And that's that's a society that is an almost entirely black. You know people, it's all the same race society, but they still had these divisions and differences. And so I, I.. I don't necessarily think that it's it's only an issue of race. I mean race comes up most because it's the one that I think is most apparent to people and in an easy way, but it's also class. It's also gender, gender identity, it's religion. There are so many different types of of ways that these systems perpetuate, that I do think that is everyone's responsibility to acknowledge how they play into those systems of difference. And it's it's hard, and I think I would agree in that kind of an ideal condition that people would be working toward that. That race isn't necessarily devised but there is the what we call the intersectional conversation about then what are all the other categories. Right? Women still earn less, LGBTQ people are still in some parts of society left out or seen negatively. So there are so many different layers to it that it the work is to acknowledge and address that difference and to kind of find ways that you center the goal, which I think I totally agree with you, that the objectives need to be a totally different place from where we are. And something I kind of learned in Rwanda which is just a it's just an incredible circumstance right. So you had you know a hundred thousand maybe a million people killed by a different group of people. And after the genocide you know they knew in many cases who killed those people but they they physically could not put all those people in jail. So you're walking around the street with people who you know killed your relatives. All right. I mean it's it's just a whole other level of conversation especially this conversation about dignity. How do you even deal with that? Right. And so something that they do which is just incredible. Go to Rwanda, the place is spotless. Why is it spotless? Everyone has to do community service. The entire society has to do community service. The reason they did that when they had the what they call the community courts there is like the formal justice system and then an informal justice system. And people were kind of sentenced to community service for the crimes they committed the genocide. But then there is a problem because people knew like Oh all these people that are cleaning up all the time were involved in the genocide. And so the government said Well everybody has to clean up and so you don't know who is doing what based on that position that they've been given in this society. And so that idea of how do you break down, or alternatively construct different ways to understand people's positions in society that are different from their appearance or different from kind of these kind of factors that make them is really really difficult, but really important work I think in any community.
Starla Hart: [01:12:00] I know we're close to our time. So I have two things one statement one question. To the point about homework, I would challenge us to continue these conversations and maybe in a different format where we can keep going even deeper and try to influence what we see here in Indianapolis. When I was going down the rabbit hole of research I noticed that AIA in L.A. did a conference that was called Designing for Dignity. And they did a full conference on it, and it was multidisciplinary, it brought in architects, designers, community folks, bureaucrats.. it brought in a lot of different people–social service people–to the table and they were looking at attacking homelessness. And they were, their whole conference was about dignity in terms of you know a basic need, shelter. And so they focused on how they could create and build homes differently so that folks could be housed, and how they could think about the laws, the policies that were put in place that created such an inequity in the real estate in California. And so they looked at affordable housing and that through that lens. So I would challenge us to pick a topic. Dig deep. Go deep and think about how we might design our own community different by bringing different people to the table.
Starla Hart: [01:13:21] And so last, your from Indy, so we have to close with Indy, what do you want to see for Indy in terms of design and it's community development?
Justin Garrett Moore: [01:13:31] Ooh. I get asked like Oh you should move back to Indy. And I would like for Indy to get there where I'm like you know I'm going to move back to Indy. There's been incredible progress since you know I was growing up here in this city in terms of the city that you've built, and the spaces you've made, and I would like to see really things getting to the next stage where actually thinking about an urban condition where things are truly not just integrated kind of socially, but integrated in terms of its spaces. You know the city is still kind of fragments and pieces like they're little pieces of success kind of sprinkled all throughout. And it's hard for it to gel, still. And it's it's difficult to do that. It takes a lot of investment in infrastructure, I think you know the transit conversation is starting. And yeah, and construction, but you know the the idea of a truly public realm. So my my work in New York is, my kind of portfolio, is what we call the public realm. Everything that is a civic, common, public good that is invested in. Indianapolis has some of that, but it's not systemic. You don't have a systemic public realm in this city and that is a big problem. Right. And so kind of understanding and getting the seed to a point where that idea of a systemic public realm, if you go back on the academic side and kind of the British it's the commons, Right, the kind of a shared space that everyone is responsible for, has access to, as being one of the most primary things, investments, goals of that society, Indianapolis is not there. So once Indianapolis gets that and understands, this is going to be one of the best cities in the country if not beyond, the the infrastructure, the ingredients are here, but that kind of of true Commons is not here yet. So I want to see that for Indy and it will be great.
Richard McCoy: [01:15:57] Thank you both very much for your talk. It's both very inspiring and educational, I really appreciated it. And Starla we really look forward to what you're doing at 16 Tech. Justin I think I mentioned this to you, I live at 33 and Washington. So thank you for your work and our neighborhood. I can't wait to see the development on Central. Much needed, we could use a grocery store, also. There's a bunch of–it's dollar store crazy, it's a food desert, it's not great but–in one other thing I just want to mention, sorry I have the microphone so I'm gonna take a little privilege here, I want to talk just for a second about Wakanda, because I think that's such an amazing analogy for what a city can be. And what's amazing for me about it is that it is able to take the traditions of the past in the same way that you're thinking about Flanner House, and taking that to today, to New York, to Rwanda, is that you see in Wakanda a kind of ideal world where both the past is valued, and it's a completely modern and–beyond modern–futuristic city and so I think what you were describing about what you want Indiana, Indianapolis to be is when we build Wakanda you'll come back. Yeah. So.
Justin Garrett Moore: [01:17:30] So I do have a quick response to that. So like if there are any nerds are in the room like it's a serious thing, I actually got to meet Hannah Beachler, so the production designer that was behind the kind of image of what was presented in Black Panther's Wakanda, and so in Wakanda, in the Golden City, at the center of the Golden City is the Archive. And so the production designer behind that project was talking about exactly that point that what makes Wakanda, Wakanda, what makes the city work is that they've understood where their past was, collectively, and it's a–it's actually a commentary on being African-American. You often don't know all of your past, and she calls it You live in the hyphen between African-American, and kind of understanding and unpacking that and making it a part of your city and how you build your city and its future is key. So the past forward we call it at Urban Patch. It's important to bring the past forward
CONCLUSION + THANKS
Lourenzo Giple: [01:18:37] You are listening to the DAYLIGHT podcast series, made possible with the support of the Cummins Foundation and brought to you by Ambrose Property Group and Central Indiana Community Foundation. A big thank you to our sponsors CVR, The Basement, Browning Investments, Hendricks Commercial Properties, Merritt Chase, Holladay Properties, and Plat Collective for making this series possible. A thank you to the staff of People for Urban Progress and Exhibit Columbus, and all the individuals involved in the creation of this speaker and podcast series.